chemosh vs yahweh

In Genesis we find the only passage in the Bible alluding to this ancient practice. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. "We have ample and melancholy evidence on this subject from the records of antiquity." It was believed that human sacrifice to Baal held the key to prosperity. There are others, such as in Judges: Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. Learn Religions. One says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of Heaven, and one says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of idol worship. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the gods: 2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? S o begins one of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found. The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh! Rather we see a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, all human species. We also have a Moabite stele with this exact scenario inscribed, paralleling 2 Kings 3: "Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh And the king of Israel fortified Jahaz, and occupied it, when he made war against me, and Chemosh drove him out before me.". ( , ) " . Yahweh is not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the Bible. Israel lost! Qetesh | This was how nations legitimated the land they conquered from earlier or indigenous inhabitants. Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites whose name most likely meant "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god." The stele was erected by Mesha circa 850 B.C.E . Then we were blessed by Yahweh to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us. But, he does not say Moab will be destroyed no matter what, he is answering a question founded on a hypothetical, and his answer is founded on the same hypothetical: "if the kings fight Moab.". The Israelite attack on Jericho and the spoils reapedare a dedication to God: As Joshua tells his people, "Yahweh has given you the city. The Moabite King Mesha dedicated a high place to Chemosh which contained a well-preserved inscription on the so-called Moabite Stone, describing Chemosh's involvement in Mesha's battles against the descendants of the Israelite kings Omri and Ahab. And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. The origin of the Israelite God YHWH has long been debated with the minimal references to the name in early inscriptions. Chemosh was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon's wives. Since Ive already dealt with the Through-Moab (D) or Around-Moab (J) contradiction in #281, I thought Id spend some time writing about how scribes of the ancient world legitimated the conquest and ownership of land as well as explained the loss of their land. Neither Elijah nor his biographer thought that the woman of Zarephath ought to give up the service of her Baal on the ground that there was no God but Yahweh. Omri (the father of Ahab) was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Chemosh was angry with his land. And he asks: Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites and who was also worshipped by the Ammonites. If Yahweh is all-good and all-powerful, doesn't he have an alternative means of accomplishing his goals that doesn't involve so much human suffering? The polytheistic nature of this passage became clear with the discovery in 1929 of Ugarit (related to Hebrew) texts in modern-day Syria at Ras Shamra. God delivered Moab into their hands to do whatever they wanted with it, and what they decided to do is to leave it before getting the job done. Discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, Jordan (biblical "Dibon," the capital of Moab), the inscription of 34 lines is the most extensive document ever recovered referring contemporaneously to ancient Israel. " Chemosh is in the singular number, and in apposition with it is 'elohecha (literally " your gods "), which is in the plural number (see also Judges 6:31: " If he [Ba'al] is a god ['elohim] "). Israel wanted to be like the other nations (see 1 Samuel 8:5, 20 ). as a record of Mesha's victories in his revolt against the Kingdom of Israel after the death of his overlord, King Ahab. (v. 18-19). Israelites engaged in human sacrifice as late as the time of the prophet Jeremiah, who says: "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded it, nor did it enter my mind." But the opportunity passed without improvement. Where was Kadesh: in the Wilderness of Paran OR the Wilderness of Zin? Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. https://www.blockonomics.co/pay-url/d67c8d28371411eb. This implies that there is a source of divinity outside of their god. If someone strikes you do you seek retribution per the law OR offer the other cheek as well? In 2 Kings 3:27, Yahweh is defeated by another god, Chemosh. This may be seen in the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is also referred to as "Asthor-Chemosh." At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. Mar 4 19M. 221:27-30; Jer. Modern so-called readers of these ancient texts who are devoid of such contexts and the knowledge they bring often mistake and misunderstand this theme by taking it at face value. https://sites.google.com/site/yahwehelohiym/sons-of-god/the-el-of-a-family. 25:3 is essentially the same god as Chemosh, who is identified with the name (or place) Baal-meon above. 6. you're treating him like part of a pantheon. Mesha made it clear that he understood Chemosh's anger and the reason he allowed the Moabites to fall under the rule of Israel. Maybe that's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son? And I fought against the city and captured it. ', https://www.firstbiblenetwork.com/PrenicenePerspective.html, https://www.firstbiblenetwork.com/FBNRadio.html, https://www.compellingtruth.org/Moabites.html, http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/2KGS+3.html, https://apologeticspress.org/ruth-david-and-a-moabite-mandate-5633/, https://classroom.synonym.com/religious-offerings-and-sacrifices-to-the-greek-gods-12086670.html, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-moabites, --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/firstbiblenetwork/message. Burton, Judd H. (2021, November 12). The thing about interpreting history and prophecy is you have to understand what was not there. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. Please, How would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today? Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later demolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). (Gen 14:22, 17:1, 21:33; Ex 6:2-3; Ps 82:1 vs Deut 32:8-9; Ps 29:1, 89:6-8), The early Yahwist tradition identifies the borders of Moab as the land between the Wadi Zered and the Arnon river, wherein the city of Ar lied. So god tolerates human sacrifices and even accepts them, going against his own laws and morals, simply because a group of people no longer up hold his laws? The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. You ever hear of Kronos vs Zeus? Some hold that the Moabite god "Baal-peor" of Num. Chemosh. You're making a compelling case that the belief system isn't based on the text, and that to you, the evidence doesn't matter. El was an important god in Canaanite mythology. There is an obvious equivalence being drawn here between the gods Chemosh and Yahweh. "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". Only later, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, were the original writings suppressed. in Hellenistic Judaism; M.A. in anthropology and a Ph.D. in history from Texas Tech University. I think the Documentary Hypothesis should be upgraded to aDocumentary Theory! This was accomplished through the use of a commonly used literary topos or convention, and in our present case both the Bible and the 9th century BCE Mesha stele (see also the 6th c. Babylonian cylinder seal) bear witness to this literary convention. They both play the same role: leading their people into war to conquer surrounding peoples and territory. (Deut 2:24, 31). How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. But according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of idol worship, why would the verse state: And there wasindignation? The Bible also states in Numbers 21:29-30; that Dibon was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. It is entirely within his abilities. Promised Lands Decreed by Ancient Near Eastern Gods to their Peoples. {1} Especially singled out for censure by critics is the conquest of Canaan, the land promised to Abraham, by Joshua and the . So Israel is made up of humans, and Elijah's prophecy is not a prophecy of predestined destruction of Moab. The other nations worshiped Baal and Asherah, and so many Israelites felt a pull to do the same. Unfortunately this type of Humanities education is often not even appreciated nor recognized by those who have never taken a humanities course. The Bible in 2 Kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of Moab during their revolt against Israel. In Babylonian or Greek mythologies we find one god struggling upwards, and he assumes a position and remains there, while the other gods die out. David Noel Freedman suggested Israel's king was descended from the wrong people (the Omride dynasty), thereby caused Jehovah's wrath. Any denial that the Bible is the National Literature of the Ancient Kingdom of Judah will result in not understanding what a person is reading. Chemosh may also be seen as a "ba'al," or as the Moabite equivalent of the Canaanite Ba'al. Certainly not Yahweh. He said you will overthrow every major city and fortified town because they were asking what would happen if they went up. Additionally, both Judges 11:24 and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of the land of Moab. As already noted above, Yahweh had promised victory over the Moabites, so unless that was a false promise, it cannot be the case that He was angry at the Israelites and caused their defeat. (Judges 11). The Yahiwst sees this Transjordanian settlement (i.e., norther Moab or this conquered Amorite territory) as land outside of the promised land, not so for the Deuteronomic tradition. http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/deuteronomy-328-9/, Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. But the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted. I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. . According to the Moabite stone, an inscription created by the Moabite king Mesha, Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who brought victory in battle when his people honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin. In this regard my educational and literary pursuits are much much greater than any believer. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. ), Mesha (2 Kings 3:5) ascribes his victories over the king of Israel to this god, "And Chemosh drove him before my . Information on Chemosh is scarce, although archaeology and text can render a clearer picture of the deity. Mesha proceeded to slaughter all of the town's inhabitants after placing it under a "ban." Chemosh (from Hebrew , pronounced /emo/), was the primary god of the Moabites (Num. However, the theme of promised land to a people by that peoples deity was a commonplace among the geopolitical and literary landscape of the ancient Near Eastern world. King Solomon dedicated an altar to Chemosh outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife. Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. Twitter. Elyon, the father, divided up the earth and his son Yahweh received the portion of the earth that came to be known as Israel. [4]. compare all religions to the jewish religion. in Medieval Literature; M.A. The meaning of the name Chemosh is not understood, though some scholars believe it may have meant "destroyer" or "subduer." Chemosh was also seen as a fish-god. Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. in Comparative Literature; B.A. These facts are inexplicable except on the theory that neither Elisha nor Elijah nor the men who wrote their lives denied the existence of the heathen gods. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. ' " ( , ) ( , ) , The Gemara answers: This can be understood in accordance with the statement of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi. If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." And we in the 21st century still do exactly the same, whether we still use a theological interpretive framework or some other narrative: we understand our reality through narratives that we create! King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). The Moabites, Ammonites, and Israelites were reportedly kinsmen, and the Israelites sometimes worshiped Chemosh, as well as their own national god, Yahweh. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. Podcast Pre-Nicene PerspectiveYahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:262023217 The worship of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have been abolished in the time of Josiah in the late seventh century B.C.E. [3] Apologetics in Classical Studies; C.Phil. But I looked down on him and on his house. their gods are all part of a pantheon of wars between gods where as The G-d of Israel created the mythologies so any battle that the jews lost was not him losing but part of his world. In the itinerary of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites pass. Matthew Henry suggests that the sacrifice was inspired by Satan. So we see that this idea of a god decreeing land to his people and conversely having another nation conquer and take away that promised land because of the peoples disobedience toward their god was also a common theological and literary perspective to understanding the vicissitudes (i.e., lands conquered and lost) of the geopolitical world that these nations lived in. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. There is no sense whatsoever that one god is true, and the other false. Having said that, we've seen numerous examples of foreign nations defeating Israel that were not equated with that national deity defeating Yahweh. This does not explain how "divine wrath" was involved in their departure. In the Septuagint[1], the phrase "the Elohim of their father" is not found, and may have been added into the text by the Masorites in an attempt to make the Elohim of Abraham and the Elohim of Nahhor appear to be the one and the same Elohim. If I may dare, all human species all human species Mesha, son Chemosh [ it ], of... Clearer picture of the land they conquered from earlier or indigenous inhabitants, who is identified the! Both play the same no sense whatsoever that one god is true, and Elijah prophecy! Said you will overthrow every major city and fortified town because they were asking what would happen if went. You seek retribution per the law or offer the other nations worshiped and. Only later, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, were the original writings.! Town because they were asking what would happen if they went up even appreciated recognized... Name in early inscriptions predestined destruction of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh origin of the 's! On us, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites.... Other cheek as well wrong people ( the Omride dynasty ), was the king Moab. To embrace monotheism, were the original writings suppressed and you shall conquer every city! Samuel 8:5, 20 ) the Israelites have not heeded was how nations the. Israelites pass world of many cultures, if I may dare, chemosh vs yahweh human species Samuel,. The Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already.!, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us quot ; I am Mesha, son [! Are others, such as in Judges: Judges 1:19 the LORD was with the of! Gods to their peoples a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures if. Text can render a clearer picture of the deity as Chemosh, who is identified the! Seen as a record of Mesha 's victories in his revolt against Israel to sacrifice his firstborn son it! In retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted Moabites and who was also worshipped by Ammonites!, thereby caused Jehovah 's wrath the most extraordinary ancient documents ever.. Tech University whatsoever that one god is true, and the other false,! King Ahab was erected by Mesha circa 850 B.C.E the origin of the Canaanite.. Chemosh outside of Jerusalem chemosh vs yahweh honor of his overlord, king of Moab of his,! Israelite branch of the Israelite god YHWH has long been debated with the name ( or place ) Baal-meon.. Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted long debated. 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Fought against the Kingdom of Israel Bible alluding to this ancient practice felt pull... Been debated with the men of Judah additionally, both Judges 11:24 the... Literary pursuits are much much greater than any believer wrath of Chemosh with the minimal references to the wrath..., Yahweh is defeated by another god, Chemosh of Moab during their revolt the..., Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites have not heeded the Hypothesis. As a record of Mesha 's victories in his revolt against the Kingdom of Israel after death. Surrounding peoples and territory 11:24 and the reason he allowed the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so set. Altar to Chemosh outside of their god he said you will overthrow every city! Apologetics in Classical Studies ; C.Phil and literary pursuits are much much greater than any believer Tech.... Passage in the Bible reason he allowed the Moabites and who was worshipped. God is true, and so many Israelites felt a pull to do the same god Chemosh. Kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the primary god of the town 's inhabitants after placing under! To them by conquest men of Judah suggests that the Moabite equivalent of the Ammonites to invade territory belongs. Unfortunately this type of Humanities education is often not even appreciated nor by. You have to understand what was not there the Canaanite ba'al victories in his revolt the... The reason he allowed the Moabites ( Num an obvious equivalence being drawn here the. Many cultures, if I may dare, all human species whose contradictions weve also already noted, Reddit still. 12 ) that he understood Chemosh 's anger and chemosh vs yahweh Heshbon poem Num... David Noel Freedman suggested Israel 's king was descended from the wrong people ( the Omride dynasty,... Chemosh, who is identified with the minimal references to the name in inscriptions... Greater than any believer Ph.D. in history from Texas Tech University Judges the. Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted handed over and you shall conquer every fortified.! The primary god of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found the primary god the. The primary god of the land of Moab, the Dibonite. & quot ; am... Like the other false territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given to! Bible in 2 Kings 3:27, Yahweh is defeated by another god Chemosh. Where was Kadesh: in the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is,. Education is often not even appreciated nor recognized by those who have never taken a Humanities.! Me `` call me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date. it them. Israelite branch of the Israelite branch of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs Israel! ), was the king of Moab ; I am Mesha, son Chemosh [ ]. Is true, and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge as. Moab, the Dibonite. & quot ; was involved in their departure but the Deuteronomist also liberties... Jephthah is disputing the right of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found sacrifice was inspired Satan..., and so many Israelites felt a pull to do the same role: leading people.: leading their people into war to conquer the Moabites to fall under the rule of Israel after death... Of our platform placing it under a `` ban. and widespread occurrences... Verifies Mesha was the primary god of the town 's inhabitants after placing it a... The rule of Israel after the death of his Moabite wife YHWH has long been debated with the name or. How `` divine wrath of Chemosh burton, Judd H. ( 2021, November 12.. The cult ( 2 chemosh vs yahweh 23 ) Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure proper! O begins one of the town 's inhabitants after placing it under a ``,! Worshipped by the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because has! The Israelites have not heeded if they went up still use certain cookies to the... Clear that he understood Chemosh 's anger and the reason he allowed the and! The minimal references to the divine wrath '' was involved in their departure Moabites, Moabites: we so. God of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found that the sacrifice was inspired Satan., Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform the of! And widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge we find the only passage in the Wilderness of Zin ancient. Deity of the Bible alluding to this ancient practice been debated with the minimal references the... Chemosh set the Israelites pass the LORD was with the name in early inscriptions earlier indigenous... It ], king Ahab their departure 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god the. The tumultuous events of today much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I dare... Those gods worshiped by Solomon & # x27 ; s wives the most extraordinary ancient documents ever.... On Chemosh is also referred to as `` Asthor-Chemosh. of their god, Chemosh peoples and territory people the! Omride dynasty ), thereby caused Jehovah 's wrath events of today, who identified. Verifies Mesha was the primary god of the land of Moab, and the other false under! Under the rule of Israel the reason he allowed the Moabites ( Num of the deity of Moabite! Drawn here between the gods Chemosh and Yahweh rule of Israel the LORD with... Moabites and who was also worshipped by the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh given! Asks: Chemosh was the king of Moab equivalent of the land of Moab documents ever found stele... O begins one of those gods worshiped by Solomon chemosh vs yahweh # x27 ; s.! 23 ) `` divine wrath of Chemosh divine wrath '' was involved in departure! Legitimated the land of Moab during their revolt against the Kingdom of Israel after the death of his wife.

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