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So effectively. But it again, its not, its not free to use it, it comes with comes with complexities and and you sort of introduce a load of problems that youve then got a solve.

Ive done that way too many times. So I liked writing the book. So when I was a kid, I always wanted to be an author, or I always wanted to write fiction books. resources| Along the way we covered ubiquitous language, living documentation, and keeping a log of the rationale behind why you made the decisions that you did when building your applications and how this can help other devs when they have the wtf moment while reading your code. If its a software system, if its a building, if its whatever, right. And thats me greatly reducing BDD down to like, the smallest thing, right? Okay, so Paul, wheres the best place for people to find out more about you?

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In the same way, as you know, you would have worked with some pretty talented then solutions architects in sort of recent years, and, you know, sort of the way that they would analyse and that, suppose that that job title gives you a bit of space, I suppose. And it is, like you said, its, its getting people to exercise those creative muscles to just like, solve a silly problem in a silly way or whatever. And so I investigated the idea of a sort of multi step or multi phase distributed transaction. And I feel like that, thatll help. I mean, Im very much a case of solve the immediate problem. The show notes, as always, can be found at dotnetcore.show, and there will be a link directly to them in your podcatcher. Whats the problem. Did I need to?. Was at The Eagles that did the Hell Freezes Over Tour, because they said when will you get back together. Its got all of these resources coming in. sealing glue uniqooo mails mailable envelopes But you know, in maths, theres, theres like one way of solving a problem. yayyy thanks everyone. Because I had decided I was going to use like security. And theres this wonderful story, if you allow me to sort of go off on this little tangent for a little minute. Its like, talk to me in your language. And then well both be at at that better stage. Spending weeks - or rather, maybe - spending days building interfaces to interfaces, to interfaces on the off chance that you swap something out, or using new to glue your system together because you need to get out the door today?

So you know it is apparently a dangerous problem that they had. Im just saying words. I mean, maybe it might be a plastic one. I blog at pmichaels.net. Various things, CDs, DVDs, phones, whatever youve got.

And they got hacked. adhesive Which will solve the problem faster? So Henry Ford said, if you would have asked my customers what they want, theyd have told me they wanted faster horses.. Copyright 1995-2022 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. Or could it be adapted? I'm @purpleponyart on Twitter and @calzephyr77 on Insta. Show me the process, because we can both talk spreadsheet, right. So yeah, lets talk - you see, you mentioned earlier on, you got this new book out. You don't have to take on the world, just get on its good side. But like, you know, are these the ways to solve those problems, you know, event driven architecture, event sourcing and distributed transactions? Two minutes, okay, right, good. And a couple of times, obviously, intentionally, I kinda go down to a dead end, to sort of discuss a piece of technology. Or are these just, youve thought of these problems, and they could be solved with these different architectures? Yeah, definitely. And its, yeah, its a fascinating, fascinating place to be. With JavaScript you get that, like three or four libraries a day isnt it. Right? But I did say that last time, so maybe it wont be. If you just come up with something thats just a laugh or a joke or whatever, everyone just laughs and jokes. And the special formula that you dont realise youre applying the like, youll say to me as magic numbers and to me as magic numbers, but do you really mean something. The reason that I did this, and not the other thing was this. And then you just date it, and save it in your project. And then the one after that, This Is Really The Last One, Honest, and then youve got the beginnings of a trilogy, right? Its enterprise HelloWorld. Yeah. Whilst youve been saying, Weve picked you for this new project, what am I building? Youre building that? And Im also a Microsoft MVP. And thats a really, you know, we have job titles that peoples job is specifically to sort of tease that out, you know; business analyst or whatever to try and work out exactly what, what it is that that somebody wants, and whether or not what theyre asking for make sense for a problem weve got. I mean, theres no point in writing a microservice architecture thats going to take you months and months and you know, all the problems that that brings with it not that you know, certain points theyre not worth addressing. Terry Pratchett wrote in one of his - I think its a book called slip of the keyboard, which is a collection of some of his sort of newspaper articles from before he was an author, when he was a journalist. Yeah, like I say is that it was an absolute joy to watch because just listening to these teams talking about, oh, well do this and well do that and then, wasnt the one of the teams did something with colour on that mini hack I was involved with? And if that works, do that. Yeah, thats probably the best way of getting in touch with me. I think there is going to be envelope glue in Stampin' Up! There is going to be double sided designer paper and an envelope template and the envelope glue. And we all like sitting in our little cubicles, put the hoodie up to block out the world, put the soundproof headphones on and just sit there and just hack away. Right? And the only way they spotted it was they saw the mouse moving across the screen. Because one of the things that I was interested in was how travel agents - or anyone who wants to sort of deal with third parties, but in a single transaction - kind of manages it. Just so you kno, 20 minutes of mouse click in and youve got your box-box-cylinder. Be sure to check out the show notes for a bunch of links to some of the stuff that we covered, and full transcription of the interview. Because last time you were on the show, you had a new book. Okay. Michaels Celebrate It Wedding Envelope Adhesive Seals Love Stickers 175 Pieces, {"modules":["unloadOptimization","bandwidthDetection"],"unloadOptimization":{"browsers":{"Firefox":true,"Chrome":true}},"bandwidthDetection":{"url":"https://ir.ebaystatic.com/cr/v/c1/thirtysevens.jpg","maxViews":4,"imgSize":37,"expiry":300000,"timeout":250}}. I call it code churn; its risky. You know, the idea if youve ever been on Expedia, or youve been on these kinds of companies, where youll say, I want to whatever it is a hotel, a plane, a car, and it goes off and it goes, okay, I booked your hotel, plane, and the car. it goes, I cant get the hotel plane card at this time, what it doesnt do is it dont come back and go, Ive got a car, but you cant have the hotel or the plane. Because obviously, you know, theres no point in that. Which leads us slightly to event driven architecture, right? So youve got to write software that sells widgets, at mini hack you havent gotta do that. Cool. And these are on dials and this machine. |advertise, Visit our platinum partners: Ive been on like, five or six times. Strong glue safe for kids to use? But apparently, it was a - I dont know why, because I dont really understand about water treatment plants. Decide that and, and work out where the door is, and the the, what he called the lentils, all that kind of stuff, you know, what was loadbearing? I dont know much about architecture, like physical architectures on a lot of this. Thanks for having me. Or, you know, maybe I just need to slow people down. If you sort of go through and say, well, how would I do this manually? Like, maybe not for an e-commerce website, perhaps or maybe not for it to do, right, storing every single event that happens in it to do probably not the greatest idea. This podcast is supported by If not, I guess I will just have to find some other things to order online to make the shipping charges worthwhile. They have European handicap, and Asian handicap and all this and the rules are really, really complicated and trying to sort of translate that into into, well, basically first into English because its like, the its a series of like, basically complicated maths. You over engineer your application, but then there are times when that fits. The above is a machine transcription, as such there may be subtle errors. No gluestick or glue gun, Splitcoaststampers.com - the world's #1 papercrafting community, You're currently viewing Splitcoaststampers as a GUEST. And rather than running a wire out the door, around the corner, and back into the other room, he drills a hole through the wall that passes the wire through; not realising that that wall is there to protect any radiation getting out of that room. And they said when hell freezes over, and then they go back together that the hell freezes over tour. So its a massive trade off that you pay, you know if youre going from a simple single database and a simple service that calls that database, and you go to a system where youve got several databases and many services and sort of Message Broker in the middle. You know, where are you going to store all this in some kind of massive warehouse with hard drives. But, obviously, these days harddrive space is incredibly cheap. No, of course. You know, and thats why I always start, if Im dealing with, you know, a new client, new customer, a new user, I say to them, go build me a spreadsheet that does what you want it to do. Like, its almost like Im asking them to prove that theres a problem. Yep. I mean, its the faster horses thing in it. "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little." Or perhaps the Rolling Stones with their we are retiring tours. That was my interview with Paul Michaels. More for me and I like it just fine. But it was all amazing. How would you deal with the fact that, you know, this database is x and the other database is y? Because it might be that theres three or four different ways of doing something and they might be equally valid. Whereas, if you wanted to try and take what Ive said and digitise it, you cant, because Im fumbling around and not finding the right words. Im not saying dont program to interfaces, but sometimes, you know, its like. Its so much more than that. And they say, well, I want you to write this software, and its gotta, I dont know, sell widgets, or whatever. Yeah, I think there was some very strange, very strange things. And I suspect that theres theres very few nuclear power plants that are distributed systems. Im not one of these whos like, you must write it in this language, or Im gonna, you know, and I try to, you know, there are other shows, shall we say, who spend a lot of time making fun of other languages. And then the next person who comes along can see that youve sort of written down, you know, Ive explicitly thought about my decision to use Entity Framework over dapper, or Ive explicitly thought about the fact that Im using C# over Python, or you know, whatever decisions you make while youre writing your project, then you just basically write them down and keep them with your code so that people can sort of see that. And it gives you things like that give you a lot, but its kind of a theme that I kept on coming back to when I was investigating architecture that, you know, theres no free lunch. Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing. And so build me that spreadsheet or walk me through a physical like you said it right? This time, you got another new book. [But] if that solves your problem, and then thats probably a hell of a lot cheaper than messing about with the introducing a Message Broker and so on. Join the party at Splitcoaststampers today! I cant remember where I heard it. Its like, you know, its not like, Im gonna, Im gonna say its not like maths, and Im sure theres somebody who understands maths better than I do, will correct me on this. - Top Rated Plus - opens in a new window or tab, - eBay Money Back Guarantee - opens in a new window or tab, - for PayPal Credit, opens in a new window or tab, Learn more about earning points with eBay Mastercard, - eBay Return policy - opens in a new tab or window, - eBay Money Back Guarantee - opens in a new tab or window. But I feel like there must be some like acceptable tolerance for travel agents or whatever. And one of the interesting ones was a sort of travel app, if you like. People will hold the door open, people put a brick in the way of the door so it doesnt close. Or some idiot made this oh, right. Yeah, I used to work in a place that did sort of gaming gambling software, then. My Sweet Petunia And that all goes down to that wonderful skill that we definitely, definitely do all have right of requirements gathering. Because Im not much of a - whats the term polyglot? And best of luck with this new book. I can't wait to use it! It just just surprised me a little bit. Yeah. But if were speaking the same ubiquitous language, youre speaking the language of the business. I like it. So they, they sort of buy and sell stuff. I am @recycledvisage on ig but I am woefully lax on posting anything. contact us| But yeah, now that weve finished sort of making fun of all the other architects out there, were making things a little bit too complex. Its just you know, most of the time now, certainly with .NET, but I imagine that most modern things: File -> New and youve got your two boxes already. And then whos paying for it? And so Im head of development company called Music Magpie at the minute. If youve got two numbers, you got two and three, and youre adding them up, then thats always going to be five. And thats a non trivial task, right? The .NET Core Podcast is a production of RJJ Software, at https://dotnetcore.show/episode-103-software-architecture-with-paul-michaels/, The Waffling Taylors - a fortnightly discussion podcast about video games, Software Architecture by Example: Using C# and .NET, This discount code only works on the Springer link above. I will see you again real soon. Not back of the envelope style conversation. And I had a look around, and I didnt see anything where there was a sort of a book that gave you some principles, and then gave you some examples about how to use them. And then I go,okay, well, we could use this technology, or we could use that technology, and how would that work? Lets talk that through a bit. And I mean, one of the exercises that that is sort of, I think its quite useful to go through is, when youre considering what it is, you know, what, what requirements the customers got whoever that may be.

Yeah.

And 80s. And thats even before you start architecting, the actual house, right? So maybe one day Ill write a fiction book. But, you know, were a lot more complex that - well, Id like to think that were a lot more complex than that. Hmmmm.. And then how much like support, right? Because like, I think its amazing that people use like brand new technology as soon as it comes out to build a real life product. Goodness. And then Ill be able to extract from the things that I can digitise or that I can programmatically do for you. So were in a different landscape, and you can go back. And even then, we ended it with some very strange things. Because you tomorrow are going to be different to you today. So for anyone listening up just on the universal sign for inverted commas. But you know, you might not be a guarantee that and so youve got to come up with a strategy of well, how do you deal with that? Right? And I suppose its a bit different if you if you sort of messing about any bedroom, as opposed to, you know, actually going and getting paid for doing some of these things. So, you know, if a server side rendered, ASP NET MVC app works, use that.

Its a similar sort of process. Because theres been so many projects over the last maybe two or three years that Ive worked on, where I walk into the code base and go, ooh! I dont know. I was just gonna say Im sure I heard. 's spring mini. Do not sell my personal information. Yeah. And I think if, with a lot of these problems, you know, if you need an event source system, youre probably going to know it. And this is the only way that really makes sense, given the constraints we have right now. And I feel like thats the important bit the, right now, bit. forums| Well, not if the keys to the kingdom are at a machine in the office, and the only way of stopping people breaking in is watching it. And you can link to it. And, you know, it might only be box-box-cylindar, you know, its worth at least that decision. But you know, most people dont have them problems. Yeah, it is fairly tolerant. Okay. Im a big fan of things like architectural decision records for that reason. So every time you every time you come up with some kind of solution, whatever it is, you pay for it. Which sort of, I dont know what, I dont know how useful that would be in a sort of real life scenario. But and, you know, in some cases it can be so you dont have to obviously with with these things, you dont have to take everything, you dont have to sort of read the various, you know, books by the people who sort of suggest these things and then take everything that you say. So when I said if a write something else, and Im going to do a, Im going to do like a topic that doesnt have a time and date associated with it. So yeah, I mean, thats basically the idea to sort of just play it through. Thanks for having me again.

So they always come up with something thats different, but in most cases, better than I kind of anticipated, because its just the weird and wonderful things. In any amount of time. It's a great product! Yep. You know likw, you must do it like this. Well, actually, its more of a suggestion, you know. You got these three separate services, and you can book or buy or purchase or whatever, something from each of them. And at the time, it was like, I think .NET Core 3.1 didnt exist at the time I was writing it. So pitched it to Apress, and they said, Yeah, were up for that. And then and then sort of started the journey. And by that, I mean, you pay 3000 pounds to go to a conference, you furiously make loads of notes on things like CQRS, and domain driven design. So anything you do on top of that, is not necessary for you to run your business. And yeah, every time it says this, the same idea. Because, you know, theres that stereotype of, were all nerds, and we all hate people. But dont necessarily think its ridiculous when youre dealing with a software engineer. And like you say, you know, some engineers are just like, great. I got three bottles of the stuff on the clearance aisle for $1 a bottle. They dont care about how its broke, they just care that is broke. No, I agree, I agree. And thats why I tell people like I tell juniors and mentees that the person you were yesterday, at least in an engineering context is a completely different person. about Im guessing you got some shownotes with this, or Ill send you a link to that. And I think those are the two hardest things to get right in development. Because, well, partly for that reason, partly because Ive got the worst memory in the world. By logging in to LiveJournal using a third-party service you accept LiveJournal's User agreement. No one can write a JIRA ticket. And, you know if youre not feeling the pain, if you can - I cant remember, I think it was Dylan Beattie usI saw do a talk once and he said, every system architecture is box-box-cylinder. If your system works as box-box-cylinder, do it. Have I actually created this problem for myself? So every time you change a line of code, by definition, youre changing the behaviour of the system. It was me. And it took, I think, they were saying, can you sort of get it written in six months? And then when I finished laughing, it ended up taking around about 18 months in the end. Thats the key thing. So dont read about football rarely, but you know, if like Manchester United are playing like Yeovil town, or something, they have various types of handicaps. Because if you dont know what the requirements are, then you dont know whether youve satisfied them, right? Its just that the sort of landscape that youre in is changed. Right? It was amazing. The brief is as vague as we can make it. And at what point does that become infeasible to kind of continue to do it manually? So you know, if youve got to do app, you know here is an a4 sheet of paper? Because, you know, when you do that, you end up with a whole new set of problems. So, I mean, Ive covered a few other basically, its a kind of, its a list of problems, you know, we just we just talked about the to do problem, which is a well known and well solved problem - everybody needs to do and everybodys written one. Software architecture that is. I mean, why dont you title your next one, The Last Technical Book I Ever Write by Paul Michaels. Either of them. And secondly, all of you jokes are trite because youve already told them before, you know what I mean?

But yeah, so when I suppose the last couple of places that Ive worked at has made me think quite a lot about architecture. And without that technical drawing, I very much doubt that there are many construction companies will come anywhere near you. Like, all of them. Weve talked about event sourcing. In this episode, I talked with Paul Michaels about Software Architecture and how important it is to get the architecture right before writing code. Since the time the system started. They go, okay, and now hes paying for it, you know, where are you getting these, these millions and billions of pounds or whatever? My goodness, youre part of a very small elite group of people. Im not saying SOLID is wrong. And then you just fix that one thing. Because you need to know who did what and when, and how it changed the system, right? Right. The container says it's by 'Green Sneakers, Inc.' in Flenmington, New Jersey. And I feel like too much work can be spent on engineering, the most elegant possible solution using all of the principles - that people take to be laws, but principles. Thats not true in software. Im sort of a seasoned gambler, if youre like, I do a bit of gambling, and I often, you know, most of my life but yeah, theres that type like, you know, the you can obviously the bookies want you to be at a bet on somebody. Okay, so weve talked about distributed transactions.

So I sort of investigate ways that you can, you can get around that. But yeah, I would quite like to come back and talk to you about my best selling fiction novel, whnever I write it. What matters, I suppose is that you thought about it, not that you made the - Im doing the inverted commas thing again 0- right decision. At some point, theres, theres about one of them things that are bottleneck. An award-winning podcast where we reach into the core of the .NET technology stack and, with the help of the .NET community, present you with the information that you need in order to grok the many moving parts of one of the biggest cross-platform, multi-application frameworks on the planet. You can build the most secure system possible. But the point is that everyone would think that was ridiculous. Because theyre sick and tired of hearing about Dave, the engineer who keeps forgetting his password or whatever. My SIL gave me hers too because she thought it was a bother to use. Thats not event driven is it? Because it represents all of the changes that were made to the system since day zero, you can actually, like you can like an accountant can write, they can look back through their log of what has changed. Walk me through the physical activity of you writing your to do list or youre writing a report or whatever, walk me through that. So would this work in this situation? And so on and so forth? And they can say, ah, right, I can see where Ive made the mistake. I think it might have been a water treatment plant or something. Because it all revolves around communication and empathy, right. And then we give it to them. I was talking to someone just today actually, about the fact that, you know, you can do conference driven development, right. Paul has recently published a new book on the subject called Software Architecture by Example: Using C# and .NET which covers CQRS, event sourcing, distributed systems, and distributed transactions, to name just a few. Fantastic. So if your problem is, I need a way of listing the tasks that Ive gotta complete in a day. And the the quickest and simplest answer to that is, heres an A4 sheet of paper and a pen. Then that cost you like I dont know, three or four quid and youre good to go. Yeah right. Yeah, I do like the gaining that breadth of knowledge of different systems gives you the idea, the experience to actually go, this is not right for us. Youre not just leaving comments for other people who work on the code, youre leaving comments, or youre leaving documentation for yourself, right? But what other so, is the book just event sourcing? And specifically with I mean, I liked writing that first book, but one of the things I didnt like was the fact that it was when when youre writing about software that doesnt exist yet. Because youre not like, you can, you can go back. And what is it take you right now? Its crazy. Because every time you change - and, you know, again, this is something that I suppose people forget - every time you change a piece of code, thats risky, right? So what youre saying is working from home is not always the best solution. It took two or three attempts to get somebody to actually do security every other time it was like they were just kind of circumvent it and do stuff that was just fun. And when that the worst thing about what youve just said is when you look at our code, and you think oh, and then you do a git log and you think, oh is me. Yeah, it is. And I suppose the thing about that is, if youve got a set of requirements, and these are the things that you need, in order to run your business, or whatever it is, Thats what you would call your sort of minimum viable product. And so if you, if youve got a problem, you kind of try and solve it, and then then you extend that. Because then youll find out that the problem isnt the problem is something else. And given that one of the languages that Im vaguely familiar with the JavaScript, then obviously, Im going to stay at stay away from that, youll get a lot of complaints from me saying that I cant, I cant deal with non static languages anymore. I like React, its a, its one of its a nice, its a nice client side framework. One can never start too early on Christmas for sure! So, you know, if if your to do solution, and thats the thing you need. I have tried it and it works great. There is a - and I dont wish to upset any travel agents who are listening or people who are planning on going on holiday. So quite often, youll give a software engineer - and in some cases, quite a junior software engineer - a system to write and theyll, kind of, you know, just start writing code, just start typing. Lets talk about this new book, right? But I think thats what DDD really solves. And how would you do it? But if youre writing a system to manage a nuclear power plant or sending a rocket to the moon or something, then it probably doesnt matter really, really badly. Not as a negative, what were they thinking more like, what paths did they go down? But maybe e-commerce is great for this. Something went wrong. Right? And sometimes, not storing all of these events, is not the right thing, if that makes us sometimes storing every single event that has ever happened to the system make sense. And for things like I mean, you know, just going back to event sourcing. Well, like I said, Paul, thank you ever so much. The same with sort of microservices and so on, which are another one that are quite popular a minute, if you if you need a micro service architecture, then youre going to be feeling the pain, and youll know that you need it to solve our pain.

Its the same idea of it, nothings really changed. And obviously, thats not an exhaustive list, because theres hundreds. So its quite interesting with software architecture, because the sort of stuff that was considered in some cases used, you know, in the 70s. When you get into massive scale, and then youve got to have a way of, essentially, because obviously, youre your bottleneck, there is your database, or its your service, it probably that probably ends up being your database. If I am only buying one bottle, shipping is twice the price of the product, so a local store makes sense. Its not easy to start with, but it starts to become super trivial. I feel like this is a little bit I mentioned earlier on and it wasnt to make fun of it or anything. And, I mean, obviously, theres, theres considerations around that. And that is not something you can like, its not something you could do in ACID, right? And I dont think you necessarily need somebody whose job title is software architect, but you do need somebody who plays that role.

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